Michael Hawley - Jack The Ripper

On Target with Penny Wolfgang
Sunday, October 29th

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

This is on target with penny Wolfgang a program that takes an inside look at what is happening in Western New York with the news features and special guests. Now here's your host Tony Wolfgang. Hi everybody and welcome to my target and thanks so much for joining us and you host penny Wolfgang. And we're here every week and we talk about subjects that we think are interesting in topical and important. And done. Meet people that we think you might want to know more about what that are making a difference here in Western New York that are either. Researching a right eating or doing something. That you. Might want to know more about a given them trying to think how I'm going to describe this but I wanna say that we are somewhat related to. Spooky Halloween really trying to think what are we going to who we gonna talk to. That might scare everybody and that. Move. We do with game scary night for me thank you I said Alina stance going rule or something like that but he wouldn't he would help me out so. Lisa my best friend Lisa she says I know somebody that has something related to Halloween so what have I mean it's sort of a stretch. A very famous author. Who has written books a series of books about Jack the Ripper. And I think if I if I am friends with a slightly different view wife son and the first thing but thank you. And Lisa says I've been asking if you would come and talk to death the the series and here is now and he's his name is Michael Hawley. And he is not only an author but. A teacher. He's a veteran in I can't describe all the things he's done in his life but he is an expert. And a very tough published and well known author and expert in the field of Jack the Ripper and has written a series. So I'm really excited because. That is something that for all the years everybody always still refers to Witten talks about it you know bullet crying his. That it ever happened in the world. That must be like if there was a poll it may be when number one the people are aware of right. Now I don't why do you mean it's strange line is the name. Jack yeah okay yes again that ticket point to this even our country you know we've had so many say it say. Incidents and in our own country but this just sticks him he's mine. So let me start up by asking you a little bit about yourself because I know that you like not just an accomplished author. I mean jest at. You attacked you are not only an accomplished author but to have like a really inching background how did you get up to Lilly are now being an author. Well as. When I came to Buffalo's because I was and the pilot and then I it was. That ten years active and I and I went in the reserves and retired as commander in state in the buffalo area and and so I. I of part of one of the things I graduated mr. state geology geo physics I love the science and so I wanted to get in the teaching this way and so. What happened was I it my passions research and so. When I get into my masters with a a joint houses doctor Rick that. Then he training how to do for the proper style of research and what I did was. There were a lot of different mystery is out there and I and and one of them was this case with the who the who Jack the Ripper really wise and then about 2009. I was waiting at a publishing company for my first book that row which is completely difference to subject called searching for troops is broken flashlight. So while I was waiting I was just I saw an episode. I TV about a Jack the Ripper suspect from Western New York buried in Rochester New York. And I thought wow so what happened was because I can also researched and family history. I found his grave site and is the name spelling was change but I've found it and actually use to get back way back in 2009. But what happened was is 1992. A retired. British police officer Stuart Evans who was who is actually a ripper researcher. This is like is fiftieth year this year he's been he's one of the top experts and in 1992 a person gave him this letter. That it was from the it was 28 famous journalists at the time is scanning Sam's but was from. This chief inspector of special branch discount yard. Didn't he was chief inspector during the ripper murders in 1988. It's special branch was the cow of the group like the CAA group that they were in the know and so. This journalist asked about it two completely different suspect what do you think about this person so this man chief inspector little shelves I don't know about that guy. But this guy named Francis totally he's a very likely suspect he said very likely suspect. And so that shocks Stuart Evans. And so students started doing research is special because he never heard about the suspect at all for the thirty plus years he's researching. And he's part of the kind of the the researchers that research this and so what he did was he found a lot of stuff in the United States so and two years later he wrote a book. And so since then though because there's limited evidence. There are a lot of other experts at Kana limited the or it can sit minimal iced him as a suspect. Well when I got involved in my passions research. And I discovered a treasure trove of stuff and so. And now last year I finished a book I did much articles by Finnish book called the purpose hearts and I didn't pay lecture and Baltimore on how France's tumbled. And I can't surprised. The community. And it. That foremost. Book editor or your book review or whose top officer is appalled bag and he said it was when he's at his head and shoulders above the rest of the books. It really got a lot of attention and so then they ask me to do election in Liverpool and I did that last month. The same suspect. But we discovered even more material this year I'm Frances tell multi and it's so my sixth book is getting. Edited rate now. And what happened was about a week and a half ago of the race I was flown to Dublin Ireland. To film for the Travel Channel and episodes of the legend hunter which is going to be starting on March. 2018. And they are absolutely convinced this was Jack to refer. Army as a researcher I can never say a 100% this is Jack the Ripper because that ruins. That your researching ability what happens when your confident can then you're stuck. Try to keep as low as biased as you can view why keep on research and look at as best you can but we're human so. But what apple has Francis tumble the when he was. Arrested. My Scotland Yard he was. At the peak of the murders he was one of the key suspects. Nobody saw him the murders occur. So nobody had anything hard evidence so what happened was as they did have hard evidence on him. For gross indecency what's he was he was gay. And so he had lenders in his pocket to show that he committed though so what they did they arrest you for gross indecency. And so then that basically what happened was is once they had the grand jury in they can return to true bill he was convinced. That he was nailed so he did is he sneaked out of the country and immersed laughed. But because when he com can make the United States. Gross indecency was a misdemeanor charge was not extradite him so he stayed in the United States for the rest of the time. And got really desire we've found this in recent evidence. 46 sworn testimonies from he died in 1903 and there was a challenge cancer as well. And these testimonies we're very revealing at him but so he's quick interest and character. That he was the guy that. He actually honed collection commuters specimens. You're serious. Hello I say and that and originally. When we heard that one eight student commanding colonel Dunham reported that. That during the civil war what happened was is Frances Conley was. He came to America in. Hi 1847. And what happened was is he during the the potato famine and he has settled with a Stanley in Rochester New York. And so he was seventeen at the time and what happened was is he hooked up with alternative medicine doctors. A French cures doctors first and an Indian herb doctor. And so what happened was by 1856. We find Tom will be in London Canada. Professing to be a full fledging in her doctor. By. Within three years he was in Toronto and he was head over of today's value million dollars already he was it. He was the best advertising Indian herb actor and so that he. So then he got himself into trouble because you know receives a medical doctors well and now about. I'm by the time we went through Canada it's making so much money at exploiting exploiting these people. Claiming that could cure all but you really couldn't. But back then. Normal medicine hurt as and they still use blood letting. And so telepathic Madison was still using Mercury so I was always better Upton and so if someone went to the doctor if I heard a lot. But botanical medicines made you feel better even today we have a lot of conflict kind that botanical medicines and then not so but he would claim a little bit more. So by that time and he would he would focus on the rich and so he was making come quite a bit of money. And so then but he one of his patients died in in Canada as we had to sneak out because they were gonna. And go against go after him for manslaughter but he's he's sneaking back in the United States and to be continued and he still made a lot of money. Get them in the meantime he had two things he was doing one as he was he was really nasty towards women b.s and it has bitter hatred of women not all women but. Widow or made me any woman that would. Could seduce young men away from their true lovers older men that's what he believed. And he blamed women for the curse of the land as and yes. Is that Anthony's story ray at the very beginning as he did see dad him and so he really believe that and so. And that's what chief inspector little shelves and raid in 1988. Is that his huge file that they in Scotland Yard showed that he had this bitter hatred of women. And so and that year. January 1888. He told Toronto reporters that he was in constant sort of sudden death because of kidney and heart disease. And so Jack the Ripper stole two uterus is a kidney and our. Matched them I mean it's so there's there's more to 2 July. The week to week so that we First Act and sank just went till everybody that you are I'm and so fascinated that they can't. Bikinis and stuff to tell our listen is what we're doing you were talking to Michael Hawley. Who is an author of the Jack the Ripper series and other other. Author author of other. Meant pieces as well but we're just ten or so and throw the fifth pick who we go back on the Jack the Ripper in case. There's somebody delay doesn't remember early doesn't know about the crimes why they were so. And important in history. What happened is is an AT read about that time was the first time that we had transatlantic cable. Koch and so I knew would be. Within hours to somebody in mind can't from something in London this just happened from the 1870s and so. Now that people all around the world could see anything that's happening in London and so. That the major new your newspapers had London correspondent there are European correspondent there are actually war correspondents basically but. Anything that happened in London was than they would send it off as quick as I suspicious of London's five hours and time and so what. What went on at that time was there was. Now. Between five and fifteen murders of women and the poor east and usually the white chapel district or its battlefield which is neighboring district. But using the white kept districts that talk about. And these were brutal murders and especially fortified. May have a very east very. Similar signature to them you know that that throw cut deep. And then there's some eviscerate she's going on as well and so this mutilation was unusual. In and so. Strangely though. And in September that she no. November. 31. The Nichols murder. When you look at that murder was kind of the first one modern experts consider. Is reform victim. There were actually two murders before one in the spring and one about couple weeks prior. That Scotland Yard and also the public thought. That there was a series of murders going out and so race. They didn't know what serial killer meant that the murder spree so when the very first ripper victim was. Killed they were already thinking of a serial killer in a way. But then a week later when Anna Chapman was murdered it was so new year like Mary Nichols murder. You know with the next almost decapitated. But Popeye Nichols was. There there was an attack to the abdomen but it looked like she was erupted. And so then that Cheney Chapman murder was that they stole. They they jacked river after murdering. It was more of an MO situation with the neck as in what they're doing is trying. Stopping heart so when she could eviscerate. There was not a lot of Mexican wasn't that message so he he took the uterus the womb. Any they also took two rinks. It was the only nine animate and inanimate object taken from me the ripper victims. So people don't understand why I'm but. Indicates Francis tumbling we do understand why because those rings where it was the keeper ring and wedding ring. Any chance and still had goes on and tumbled the aboard hated anything to do with the male female union and then sell it that was the only thing on those were for victims it. Hat was symbolic of that. So but so that happen and they called. You know it was in 1988 and the the are remote care and so after. Polly Nichols smarter than any Chapman September 8 then how about September at the end of September there was that the thing tumors or purpose happen at the same evening. They call the double that now but Elizabeth stride was murdered. In white chapel but then just outside of white chapel in the city of London district. In miter square. Catherine Adams was murdered and she in the the uterus was taken from her as well. And so so that no murders occurred in October and then November 9 is when Mary Kelly at the last was murdered indoors the only one that was indoors. So. So that it really shocked the world because. It was a time where the press whether they're competing with each other as well so there's a little bit of they can also. Have little drawings panel images on there there newspapers and so. That name though Jack the Ripper didn't start until. After. That double event when there's a letter that was given. In the latter set. It was titled Jack stripper at the end. But that chief inspector little child explained that was not from the killer and he's just gonna ask you will you read my mind so I can say. We're in the name Jack the Ripper come from and chief mr. Specter little jealous that is probably a reporter or to reporters from the central news agency. And that was in the same letter that she can spectral child mentions Francis company for the first time. Today think. That this serial killer that. They because of the modus operandi because it's so dissimilar and so boring in an usual that it was one person. At that time especially especially the man that took over afterwards. A man named make Naughton who believe was convinced that was. Five Macau would call them economical fun. That hail all of them have the that that's similar to obliterate his injuries now with a fender signature though we felt like let's say for example display. Now the first four victims that they were they were out doors in May he be eviscerate within minutes that's why a lot of the surge is back then. Thought this man must've had anatomical my training I should connect it didn't they suspect somebody that you know what they were doing you know as far as tomorrow. Exactly in Atlantic where it wasn't perfect but it was fast Katherine and those was in disarray within minutes because. The patrol council came by within minutes and then in the end the body was still steaming and so that the person banished. And then so but but then the indoor or murder in November 9 Mary Kelly. The person I have powers was to the victim's body. So then there would be definitely be displaced EDT more offenders signature there as in the display what the other personality or what. That's this killer was trying to to say your experience and somebody wrote a letter. Club claiming that they were Jack the Ripper or. Well there are dozens letters yeah and so the famous letters are the gearbox letter which has jacked we're written on that. And then the reason why they took that seriously is because he claimed that he was going to. Think the year. And then that next to murder that part of it here was taken. And then there is this that letter that corresponding letter of the same author called saucy Jack letter that. Made them very and Scotland Yard. Think that might be authentic platter what's important for us about that is because that there were American isn't in there this is the first time they're thinking maybe. That the killer might be an American doctor. And then so so then soon after that there is this letter called it the from hell letter which the movie would Johnny Depp from elk stems from. That from hell letter had a kidney would it. And that victim the previous victim they took to kidney. And so here was a laugh if you were to keep me with a letter that went to the news agency. And then that's so two day. Lots of people if there was a letter that would be considered authentic that would be the best possibility. Now how did they I you know we tour that cold cases fit you know here in America how did they just stop investigating. And never find the person who you know was responsible. Well what happened what if that's the big question right after November. You know homer. For example and when did they sap that's a good point Slovenia and reversed early losses as when companies think that the country went back to the United States we have. Record newspaper counts of scouting or. Detectives in the United States trying to keep and I trying to investigate. Francis tumble the and then. The the two other suspect main suspects that the experts take seriously there's field them but one is. Kaczynski he was put in an insane asylum. The murder stopped another one is this drew it who he committed suicide. And the murders staff so we have the murder stopping in a way but what happ was the next year there was another victim. And so. Scout errant thought that victim and the next year too they they were checked to refer victims. Here's tumbled back in New York so that took tumbled off the radar screen so they ignored Tom movie but then only. Years later make not who kind of took over. The case the case was never kind of closed. But. They took on the detectives off the case after eighteen may ninth so you can see that they can have. He gave up honest but might not continued and he was convinced that. Mary Kelly was less murder in November 9 which Francis Tomlin was here and there it is time. I'm assuming big. As we you'll watch you know lawyer notre known crew monsoonal that that the police. Styling I kept certain facts to themselves that are. About the matter is that only. So that only the murderer would know. So that when they did find the person that obviously they you know they would. And that people who couldn't confessed some people are always saying oh I did this or know who did this guy. The police snow or in what they call from Scotland Yard investigators are you know that to it's it's like a copy kept. It's not the right person. Play as absolutely and that's what's caused confusion today because when you look at the newspaper accounts as which is what we have a lot. Scouting our wasn't always up front where them. And so and that's what we see with the case where let's say for example the the corner back then. Was convinced he told the group that press that he believed that Jack the Ripper. Might be trying to sell organs because just a year before or just within that few months ago. There was eight American medical's could do student that want medical schools. Asking to buy universe. How the uterus assessments for twenty pounds apiece. And so. So then now but what happened was is that newspaper's gotta hold and report that said that a Philadelphia gynecologists and house seasoned musician. Was one I was asking for that so then next thing you know fifteen years later. We have reports that Scott Harris still took that seriously well if that was really the Philadelphia Catholic colleges. Then he wasn't there during murders why would scouting are considered at take this seriously so you can see that there was inside. Communication that's what was and is interesting about chief inspector a little child's private letter did not expect to go public. Who had a. Do you have all the research that you could've done ovals are subject stupid got me interested and being a pilot being in I can't even name what you say you learn specializing in. In studying and teaching now how to get into seeing in this as the subject. While the thing about feeling intelligent or when I'm collecting fossils first time he's seen these classes and just millions of years but also. There were thing questions that their previous researchers head. That we answer and respond to can discover and so when in 2009 I found out years. One of the prime suspects is buried in Rochester new York and I was elected and then that so that did it and so than than that I found out when I look at the research from a physical science. Background. Seeing that these people their research. They focus on here is their data and then here's their their logic to a conclusion. Well a lot of people say well that's very convincing. But the problem is sometimes you don't know about cherry picking data and was already use and so we focus always on the data. So I went for the data and I realized that that data was flawed in a lot of cases and then we just had just discovered more. So then this year we have found out that Francis tumbled me. Now he was. He died in 1903 in Saint Louis and he had upwards of three million dollars and these value. For the last ever since the reformers came he lives that he lived in the cities. As a homeless person. He had he had. Expensive jewelry in one pocket. And then he had cash and the other and that who won the receipt for a 140000. Dollars ms. New York bank so what capitalizes. He would always. It would go and try to molest young men and trying to and so we go to jail some things that are getting trouble. But you know he showed the use to show that he was. Tenement mortgage crisis sighted person so treatments such. Yet he dressed like a trapped and so it was really strange and even then 1895. A neighbors saw him in Rochester New York she is walking decisions street she sees him in the dark Alley. Just as hands and just kind of quiet. I mean so reproach like but what. He can yet but did he commit inning did they suspect that he committed the murders in when he came to that to their go at these other crimes and child there's there's to answer that before we get that what happened was his in some of those sworn testimony is what happened was is the the family members sued because he would only give third of the family members any money and nothing for the rest. So they said that this guy was not of sound mind and body therefore is will now void that was a goal. But what happ was all these testimonies are a young man that worked for the New Orleans Police Department. Telegraph operator that had to admit an eighteen whined that he. Tom will be paid for his prostitution male prostitution. So so for twenty years he would meet Tom will be in Mardi Gras. And so he can get married this Richard Norris we'll Norris said that in 1981 this a few years before the reformers. He was smoking a cigarette and tell people that cigarette out of his mouth and gave him a cigar which we knew tumbled smoke cigars said. He goes. He goes there's two things bad for young men cigarettes. And night walkers they should Albie do some how old at the same time he showed this collection surgical knives. And when you look at Ali act which they talk about surgical lyzard probably would Jack or for use. This. Week just discovered this and that's one of the reasons why they Caspian talking Liverpool also went to a Dublin's because of these. This shocking material that. Period as a key suspect and we have this a ripper like stuff. Before the murders. Now did any murders happen afterwards the FBI says the first thing they say this is a misconception that serial killers continue to vote to kill. All the time some time to do especially if they're Saito sexual as in us a sadistic like Ted Bundy. Or Jeffrey Dahmer or France is totally. His motive was not state of sexual it would have been anger retaliatory. And reassurance oriented is what some of these experts have looked at it that are not ripper experts that are experts in forensic scientist doctor Brent turvy and so they looked at it. And matches two movies this hatred of women. Especially. If he blames them for the person when here's a man that thought he could cure all I couldn't cure himself. That is so amazing is also fascinating. And it is interesting that after all these years he putt all hundreds of years and by Pete Miller still. Interested and excited and you know intrigued by the whole subject we thank you so much we've been talking to. Michael Holley who is an author of the Jack the Ripper series as well. As other and I think you can find his books. Anywhere yet in my web says fast they're it's Michael Al Ali that come. And you'll see that what I I do both nonfiction fiction and that's to the series and they've the fiction had been three edited with polished I mean that was. Some very press and so the rich purse help Graf is actually out this week which is actually the fiction version of my reports the reports talks which is a nonfiction version. So coming up. The publisher promise they have the in my next book. Doctor Jack Tripper suspect doctor Francis pummeled the be published before. The a Travel Channel show is hey check the website everybody in check it. Tell travel show and remember you heard it here first and and on target thank you so much for talking to us. And death happy Halloween everybody and thank you soliciting loose talk to begin soon at bank. You've been listening to one target with many Wolfgang. A program that takes an inside look at western new York and our community. If you have any comments or suggestions. Please write to penny Wolfgang at 500 corporate parkway suite 200 Amherst New York. 114 to six.